> >> >Free markets are fine and dandy, but major league sports are not a free > >> >market. There is free agency, and the willingness of owners to overspend > >> >or not spend at all, but these are a veneer of free market principles > >> >layered atop a tightly controlled market.
> >> So you would rather a top player not be able to get paid what he is > >> worth?
> >I like how there's always someone inside your head telling you things no > >one actually says. Tell him I said "hi."
> That's what you discern from a question?
Based on the questions you "discern" from people's opinions, yeah, that's what I do in your case.
>On Oct 26, 6:06 pm, "3jane." <q3j...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > Comparing their multi year deals to a single season payroll is odd.
>> > Why not compare their salaries to other players?
>> > Yanks payroll is $208m. Phillies is $111m.
>> > New York Yankees Salaries - 2009 >> > Player Salary (US$) >> > 1. Alex Rodriguez 33,000,000
>> No wonder major league baseball is so fucking boring now. If talking >> about how much players make is a major topic then your sport sucks. >> If someone could explain how it got to this state of affairs I'd >> apprecitae it but actually don't bother because I don't care.
>I can do it in three words: no salary cap.
I can do it in one fewer word: free market. -- ~ Seth Jackson
>The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ >than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent >too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary >MO.
You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from 2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
> >On Oct 26, 4:59 pm, DG <xxxxx...@xxxxxx.xxxxxx> wrote:
> >> This winter, the Yankees signed pitchers A.J. Burnett and C.C. > >> Sabathia, and first baseman Mark Teixeira to a combined $423.5 million > >> in long-term deals.
> >I heard on the radio today that these three guys make more than 16 > >teams' complete payrolls.
> Comparing their multi year deals to a single season payroll is odd.
> Why not compare their salaries to other players?
> Yanks payroll is $208m. Phillies is $111m.
> New York Yankees Salaries - 2009 > Player Salary (US$) > 1. Alex Rodriguez 33,000,000 > 2. Derek Jeter 21,600,000 > 3. Mark Teixeira 20,625,000 > 4. A.J. Burnett 16,500,000 > 5. CC Sabathia 15,285,714 > 6. Mariano Rivera 15,000,000 > 7. Jorge Posada 13,100,000 > 8 a. Johnny Damon 13,000,000 > 8 b. Hideki Matsui 13,000,000 > 10. Robinson Cano 6,000,000 > 11. Andy Pettitte 5,500,000 > 12. Nick Swisher 5,400,000 > 13. Damaso Marte 3,750,000 > 14. Jose Molina 2,125,000 > 15. Jerry Hairston Jr. 2,000,000 > 16. Melky Cabrera 1,400,000 > 17. Joba Chamberlain 432,575 > 18. Brett Gardner 414,000 > 19. Phil Hughes 407,650 > 20. David Robertson 406,825 > 21. Alfredo Aceves 406,750 > 22. Phil Coke 403,300 > 23. Francisco Cervelli 400,000 > Total Team Salary: 208,097,414
> Philadelphia Phillies Salaries - 2009 > Player Salary (US$) > 1. Ryan Howard 15,000,000 > 2. Brad Lidge 12,000,000 > 3. Chase Utley 11,285,714 > 4. Jimmy Rollins 8,500,000 > 5. Raul Ibanez 7,166,666 > 6. Joe Blanton 5,475,000 > 7. Pedro Feliz 5,000,000 > 8. Cole Hamels 4,350,000 > 9. Shane Victorino 3,125,000 > 10 a. Jayson Werth 2,500,000 > 10 b. Chan Ho Park 2,500,000 > 12. Ryan Madson 2,333,333 > 13. Scott Eyre 2,000,000 > 14. Chad Durbin 1,635,000 > 15. Matt Stairs 1,625,000 > 16. Greg Dobbs 1,150,000 > 17. Eric Bruntlett 800,000 > 18. Miguel Cairo 500,000 > 19. Carlos Ruiz 475,000 > 20. J.A. Happ 405,000 > Total Team Salary: 111,209,046
Whole discussion of money is endless and equally senseless. Baseball will never have a national-TV deal like football (given its 10-times- longer season), so there will always be a scenario where Yanks, Red Sox, Dodgers, Mets, and other teams with sweet TV deals (and their own networks) will have more cash to spend. I just don't see a true salary cap coming, as a result. The highest-payroll teams already subsidize the others; perhaps not as much as you Pirates fans would like, but so be it.
Also consider that as gross as the Yanks' payroll is (I'm a lifelong Yanks fan), people who work in NYC will almost always make much more than their peers in other cities. (Yes, the Yanks play in the Bronx, but salaries have a Manhattan premium.) So some of the gap between Yanks and others can be attributed to that.
Again, as a fan who's seen his seat prices skyrocket, I wish the Yanks would spend less and perhaps gouge us less. But I also realize that during Steinbrenner's 36-year run, he's pumped a ton of money into the team (and, yes, benefited from much largesse from city and state governments) and produced a winner, a team that's won 6 World Series titles and been in 11 World Series and now plays in an incredible stadium, one that's a treat to go to, no matter where your seats are.
So whine away about the evil empire. I'll just enjoy watching this team win. After all, it's just a game....
>>The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ >>than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent >>too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary >>MO.
>You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from >2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel >decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The >big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
And don't forget that despite the signings of those three, they Yankees' total payroll didn't go up much at all from last year when they had Mussina, Giambi, Abreu and some others making big bucks. So it's not like they went out and added more payroll; they simply replaced guys that left for one reason or another.
>>>>The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ >>>>than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent >>>>too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary >>>>MO.
>>>You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from >>>2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel >>>decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The >>>big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
>>And don't forget that despite the signings of those three, they >>Yankees' total payroll didn't go up much at all from last year when >>they had Mussina, Giambi, Abreu and some others making big bucks. So >>it's not like they went out and added more payroll; they simply >>replaced guys that left for one reason or another.
>These games have been great. Tonight's game was fantastic. Melky >going home. 4-3 when Sabathia leaves. Joba getting two great >strikeouts and then giving up a game tying home run to Feliz. Damon >was awesome. I thought he was going to be out at third but the shift >was on. The fucking announcers were telling us some bullshit story >instead of talking about what was happening in front of them.
>Buck and McCarver suck. Get rid of those assholes already. Posada on >first, one out. Pop up to shallow left towards the line. Posada >takes second cautiously. McCarver thinks he should have been running >and taken third. How? Why? Maybe that nitwit can explain himself.
>I'm hoping that Lee can have another gem tomorrow and the series goes >on...
McCarver also suggested that Girardi might leave Chamberlain in for the 8th....until he remembered that they had pinch hit for him the previous inning. His call on the Posada play was simply ridiculous. If the ball had been caught and Posada got doubled off, he'd have been crowing about what a horrible baserunning mistake it was. He' also said Chamberlain shouldn't throw Feliz anything but fast balls after getting ahead in the count. After missing with two breaking balls, Feliz hit Chamberlain's fastball out of the park. Nice call. It's hard to believe McCarver played in the bigs for 20 years. It's no wonder he neve became a manager.
> >The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ > >than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent > >too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary > >MO.
> You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from > 2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel > decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The > big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
But it's those 3 FA signings that have got them where they are now. The farm system may get them a championship in the future, but that remains to be seen.
> >>The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ > >>than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent > >>too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary > >>MO.
> >You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from > >2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel > >decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The > >big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
> And don't forget that despite the signings of those three, they > Yankees' total payroll didn't go up much at all from last year when > they had Mussina, Giambi, Abreu and some others making big bucks. So > it's not like they went out and added more payroll; they simply > replaced guys that left for one reason or another.
But it was still done by simply buying established superstars - their payroll is much, much higher than any other team's.
>> >The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ >> >than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent >> >too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary >> >MO.
>> You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from >> 2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel >> decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The >> big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
>But it's those 3 FA signings that have got them where they are now. >The farm system may get them a championship in the future, but that >remains to be seen.
So what? Your assertion that they win "simply with $" is clearly wrong. Many key pieces of the team were either via the farm system or acquired through trades, including half their starting lineup and most of their bullpen. -- ~ Seth Jackson
>> >>The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ >> >>than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent >> >>too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary >> >>MO.
>> >You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from >> >2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel >> >decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The >> >big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
>> And don't forget that despite the signings of those three, they >> Yankees' total payroll didn't go up much at all from last year when >> they had Mussina, Giambi, Abreu and some others making big bucks. So >> it's not like they went out and added more payroll; they simply >> replaced guys that left for one reason or another.
>But it was still done by simply buying established superstars - their >payroll is much, much higher than any other team's.
Hey, it's New York City. Everything costs more there.
>> >>The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ >> >>than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent >> >>too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary >> >>MO.
>> >You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from >> >2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel >> >decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The >> >big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
>> And don't forget that despite the signings of those three, they >> Yankees' total payroll didn't go up much at all from last year when >> they had Mussina, Giambi, Abreu and some others making big bucks. So >> it's not like they went out and added more payroll; they simply >> replaced guys that left for one reason or another.
>But it was still done by simply buying established superstars - their >payroll is much, much higher than any other team's.
Wrong. It was done by developing players through the farm system, acquiring players via trades, and signing free agents. -- ~ Seth Jackson
>>> >The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ >>> >than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent >>> >too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary >>> >MO.
>>> You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from >>> 2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel >>> decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The >>> big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
>>But it's those 3 FA signings that have got them where they are now. >>The farm system may get them a championship in the future, but that >>remains to be seen.
>So what? Your assertion that they win "simply with $" is clearly >wrong. Many key pieces of the team were either via the farm system >or acquired through trades, including half their starting lineup and >most of their bullpen.
That doesn't negate the money aspect - they can afford to keep their homegrown talent and don't have to worry when someone they brought up through their farm system becomes eligible for free agency.
That said, they sign players within the rules and invest a good amount of their revenue back into the team. This year, they've spent that money pretty wisely as well.
> >> >The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ > >> >than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent > >> >too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary > >> >MO.
> >> You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from > >> 2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel > >> decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The > >> big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
> >But it's those 3 FA signings that have got them where they are now. > >The farm system may get them a championship in the future, but that > >remains to be seen.
> So what? Your assertion that they win "simply with $" is clearly > wrong. Many key pieces of the team were either via the farm system > or acquired through trades, including half their starting lineup and > most of their bullpen.
But it's the big FA aquisitions that made the difference this year. .
> >> >>The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ > >> >>than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent > >> >>too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary > >> >>MO.
> >> >You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from > >> >2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel > >> >decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The > >> >big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
> >> And don't forget that despite the signings of those three, they > >> Yankees' total payroll didn't go up much at all from last year when > >> they had Mussina, Giambi, Abreu and some others making big bucks. So > >> it's not like they went out and added more payroll; they simply > >> replaced guys that left for one reason or another.
> >But it was still done by simply buying established superstars - their > >payroll is much, much higher than any other team's.
> Wrong. It was done by developing players through the farm system, > acquiring players via trades, and signing free agents.
They spent their money well this year, and it has paid off. But last year they didn't make the playoffs at all, and this year, after signing three big FAs they are on their way to WS victory. It's a huge part of their success.
>> >> >>The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ >> >> >>than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent >> >> >>too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary >> >> >>MO.
>> >> >You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from >> >> >2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel >> >> >decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The >> >> >big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
>> >> And don't forget that despite the signings of those three, they >> >> Yankees' total payroll didn't go up much at all from last year when >> >> they had Mussina, Giambi, Abreu and some others making big bucks. So >> >> it's not like they went out and added more payroll; they simply >> >> replaced guys that left for one reason or another.
>> >But it was still done by simply buying established superstars - their >> >payroll is much, much higher than any other team's.
>> Wrong. It was done by developing players through the farm system, >> acquiring players via trades, and signing free agents.
>They spent their money well this year, and it has paid off. But last >year they didn't make the playoffs at all, and this year, after >signing three big FAs they are on their way to WS victory. It's a huge >part of their success.
Yes, the FA signings helped a lot. That's a far cry from your original assertion that they achieved success by "simply buying established superstars". -- ~ Seth Jackson
>>>> >The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ >>>> >than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent >>>> >too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary >>>> >MO.
>>>> You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from >>>> 2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel >>>> decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The >>>> big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
>>>But it's those 3 FA signings that have got them where they are now. >>>The farm system may get them a championship in the future, but that >>>remains to be seen.
>>So what? Your assertion that they win "simply with $" is clearly >>wrong. Many key pieces of the team were either via the farm system >>or acquired through trades, including half their starting lineup and >>most of their bullpen.
>That doesn't negate the money aspect - they can afford to keep their >homegrown talent and don't have to worry when someone they brought up >through their farm system becomes eligible for free agency.
Of course money is an advantage. That's a lot different from winning "simply with $".
>That said, they sign players within the rules and invest a good amount >of their revenue back into the team. This year, they've spent that >money pretty wisely as well.
It's funny how all that $ couldn't buy them a championship for all those years until suddenly it could. I guess developing their own talent, making smart trades, and spending wisely on FAs has something to do with it, after all. -- ~ Seth Jackson
>>>>> >The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ >>>>> >than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent >>>>> >too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary >>>>> >MO.
>>>>> You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from >>>>> 2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel >>>>> decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The >>>>> big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
>>>>But it's those 3 FA signings that have got them where they are now. >>>>The farm system may get them a championship in the future, but that >>>>remains to be seen.
>>>So what? Your assertion that they win "simply with $" is clearly >>>wrong. Many key pieces of the team were either via the farm system >>>or acquired through trades, including half their starting lineup and >>>most of their bullpen.
>>That doesn't negate the money aspect - they can afford to keep their >>homegrown talent and don't have to worry when someone they brought up >>through their farm system becomes eligible for free agency.
>Of course money is an advantage. That's a lot different from winning >"simply with $".
Agreed. The Mets had the highest payroll in the NL - how'd that work out for them?
But it would be interesting to see how well the Yankees braintrust did if they had a lower budget - Minnesota regularly makes the playoffs despite spending far less than the Yankees. I don't know if Cashman and company could do as well with a budget like that.
>>That said, they sign players within the rules and invest a good amount >>of their revenue back into the team. This year, they've spent that >>money pretty wisely as well.
>It's funny how all that $ couldn't buy them a championship for all >those years until suddenly it could. I guess developing their own >talent, making smart trades, and spending wisely on FAs has something >to do with it, after all.
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 01:08:55 -0500, Brad Greer <jjh110...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Of course money is an advantage. That's a lot different from winning >>"simply with $".
>Agreed. The Mets had the highest payroll in the NL - how'd that work >out for them?
>But it would be interesting to see how well the Yankees braintrust did >if they had a lower budget - Minnesota regularly makes the playoffs >despite spending far less than the Yankees. I don't know if Cashman >and company could do as well with a budget like that.
I think they could do it, but it would require a rebuilding period. That's something that the Yanks haven't been willing to endure. -- ~ Seth Jackson
>>>Of course money is an advantage. That's a lot different from winning >>>"simply with $".
>>Agreed. The Mets had the highest payroll in the NL - how'd that work >>out for them?
>>But it would be interesting to see how well the Yankees braintrust did >>if they had a lower budget - Minnesota regularly makes the playoffs >>despite spending far less than the Yankees. I don't know if Cashman >>and company could do as well with a budget like that.
>I think they could do it, but it would require a rebuilding period. >That's something that the Yanks haven't been willing to endure.
I'm not as sure - the Yankees are able to bury a lot of high-priced mistakes, there's far less margin for error with a Minnesota or Tampa Bay.
> >> >> >>The Yankees are far more about winning a championship simply with $ > >> >> >>than any other team by a long margin. Sure, they have homegrown talent > >> >> >>too but buying the free agents with the fat wallet is their primary > >> >> >>MO.
> >> >> >You've got the wrong verb tense. It *was* their primary MO from > >> >> >2001-2007. That was when George started making all the big personnel > >> >> >decisions. Since then, the farm system has become a priority. The > >> >> >big 3 FA signings last offseason doesn't change that.
> >> >> And don't forget that despite the signings of those three, they > >> >> Yankees' total payroll didn't go up much at all from last year when > >> >> they had Mussina, Giambi, Abreu and some others making big bucks. So > >> >> it's not like they went out and added more payroll; they simply > >> >> replaced guys that left for one reason or another.
> >> >But it was still done by simply buying established superstars - their > >> >payroll is much, much higher than any other team's.
> >> Wrong. It was done by developing players through the farm system, > >> acquiring players via trades, and signing free agents.
> >They spent their money well this year, and it has paid off. But last > >year they didn't make the playoffs at all, and this year, after > >signing three big FAs they are on their way to WS victory. It's a huge > >part of their success.
> Yes, the FA signings helped a lot. That's a far cry from your > original assertion that they achieved success by "simply buying > established superstars".
That's what put them over. It sure makes it easier to be their GM. Well, except for the Steinbrenners :-)
But you shouldn't be arguing with me - you should be celebrating :-)
>>>>Of course money is an advantage. That's a lot different from winning >>>>"simply with $".
>>>Agreed. The Mets had the highest payroll in the NL - how'd that work >>>out for them?
>>>But it would be interesting to see how well the Yankees braintrust did >>>if they had a lower budget - Minnesota regularly makes the playoffs >>>despite spending far less than the Yankees. I don't know if Cashman >>>and company could do as well with a budget like that.
>>I think they could do it, but it would require a rebuilding period. >>That's something that the Yanks haven't been willing to endure.
>I'm not as sure - the Yankees are able to bury a lot of high-priced >mistakes, there's far less margin for error with a Minnesota or Tampa >Bay.
George was calling the shots from 2001-2007. During that period, he would routinely trade away prospects for aging former stars, and he would sign the same type of players to big FA contracts. Since Cashman took over decision-making in 2007, the Yanks have already managed to build a formidable farm system.
They are certainly able to bury high-priced mistakes, but they haven't needed to do it in the past few years. Continuing in the current direction, they should need to do it still less in the future. -- ~ Seth Jackson
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