>> There is also the factor of how you engage the person you're >> asking for help. I've learned over the years the (generally) >> right way to approach them. In this case, I immediately told the >> woman I was going to make an unreasonable request, and went >> light-heartedly from there. I made it clear that I didn't think >> they would honor my request, but it would have no bearing on >> whether I continued to buy from them. Which was true. In short, >> I didn't force her into a "NO!" corner.
> This really is the heart of the matter, so I'm glad that you point to it, > William. > A few years ago, someone initiated a thread here complaining about rude > service > from BRO.
You might as well raise my blood pressure regarding BRO as I suffer from low blood pressure; they are bastards plain and simple. During the last year or so, I contacted them (phone or email I can't recall) about a bronzed unplayable (ASV ?) disc they shipped to me. They checked their stock and informed me that all the remaining stock was similarly bronzed. I was told to return the item to for a credit which would then be applied to my next order. The cost of the return shipping was to be mine to bear being told this was standard practice in the industry world-wide. (The issue was discussed in the most polite manner imaginable.) Nevertheless I have continued to order from them, I had to at least once anyway, in order to get my credit :-), since they probably know all this, ethics and honesty went out the window. I hate their guts.
I was mystified, because I've been a customer of theirs almost as long
> as they've been in business, and have received *wonderful* service from > them, > always polite and attentive. I had to assume that the variable element > was the > nature of the interaction. Now that I have seen the details of William's > story, I > will report the following: In the pre-Internet Stone Age, I used to order > from > BRO by calling them on the telephone and reading off lists of record > numbers. > Once I ordered an expensive boxed set, but mistakenly read the number of > the next > item in the catalog. They sent exactly what I ordered, but of course it > was not > what I wanted. So I called them back in the spirit that William describes > above, > with an apology and an "unreasonable request." And guess what: they > exchanged the > item without hesitation or fuss.
> It's not analogous to William's situation, but on occasion I have > pre-ordered > future releases from Amazon and had them delivered for a price *lower* > than the > one I agreed to at the time of ordering. If that is their SOP, it's a > nice > gesture to their customers.
> They checked their stock and informed me that all the remaining > stock was similarly bronzed. I was told to return the item to for a > credit which would then be applied to my next order. The cost of > the return shipping was to be mine to bear being told this was > standard practice in the industry world-wide.
It generally is. Few products carry a "full" warranty.
In this case, given that they had a whole lot of bad disks, BRO should probably have absorbed the return costs, and asked ASV for some restitution when the bronzed disks were returned for credit.
William Sommerwerck wrote: >>> I recently had a problem with an order. The problem was not caused >>> by CD Universe, but by the manufacturer. I asked CD Universe if it >>> would resolve the problem. And it did, without any arguing, even >>> though CD Universe was neither morally nor legally obliged to do so.
>> Isn't this standard customer service? Amazon, MDT and Tower Records >> (back in the day) have all done this for me.
> Okay, okay, okay...
> I hate doing this, but I'm going to have to tell you what actually > happened. Please don't use this as an excuse to abuse CD Universe's > "good nature".
> I'd been wanting to buy the DG 20/21 disk of Boulez conducting Pli > Selon Pli. When I finally got around to ordering it from Arkiv, the > $20 disk was out of stock. My retail dealer (Silver Platters) had > ordered it (on their own, as an SKU), but it never showed up. It > seemed it had been discontinued.
> HB (is that the name?) and CD Universe had stock. The former wanted > about $35, CD Universe about $32. HB told me that that /was/ the > price, and they had no idea why a single disk would sell for so much. > (The others in that series are $17 or so per disk.) So I gritted my > teeth and ordered from CD Universe. (This was not my first purchase > from them.)
> Guess what... Two weeks after it arrives, Arkiv has it back in stock > -- and CD Universe is now selling it for $16.50!
> I knew this was DG's doing, not CD Universe's. I nevertheless called > them, and said "Look, I want to make an unreasonable request. Would > you credit my account for the difference?" They confabbed and said, > /in this one instance/, they would. The next day I placed an order to > use the credit.
> Now do you understand? This was not a defective recording or missing > disk. It was a screw-up by DG that CD Universe was not responsible > for. They didn't have to make good, but they did.
> I've also contacted DG to complain about this, asking that they > reimburse CD Universe. Haven't heard anything yet.
> There's another issue I didn't discuss. CD Universe is a discount > dealer. You don't usually expect discount dealers to give you good > service. They did. And I was talking with someone in the US, too. > It's nice to get a good price, and good service.
My God, William. There was an error in the listing of the price. Not crediting you the difference would have been tantamount to theft, not to mention really, really bad customer relations.
>>> There is also the factor of how you engage the person you're >>> asking for help. I've learned over the years the (generally) >>> right way to approach them. In this case, I immediately told >>> the woman I was going to make an unreasonable request, and >>> went light-heartedly from there. I made it clear that I didn't >>> think they would honor my request, but it would have no >>> bearing on whether I continued to buy from them. Which was >>> true. In short, I didn't force her into a "NO!" corner.
>> This really is the heart of the matter, so I'm glad that you >> point to it, William. >> A few years ago, someone initiated a thread here complaining >> about rude service >> from BRO.
> You might as well raise my blood pressure regarding BRO as I > suffer from low blood pressure; they are bastards plain and > simple. During the last year or so, I contacted them (phone or > email I can't recall) about a bronzed unplayable (ASV ?) disc > they shipped to me. They checked their stock and informed me > that all the remaining stock was similarly bronzed. I was told > to return the item to for a credit which would then be applied > to my next order. The cost of the return shipping was to be mine > to bear being told this was standard practice in the industry > world-wide. (The issue was discussed in the most polite manner > imaginable.) Nevertheless I have continued to order from them, I > had to at least once anyway, in order to get my credit :-), > since they probably know all this, ethics and honesty went out > the window. I hate their guts.
Norman, if this is all it takes to make you "hate" someone and call them "bastards," I would cross the street if I saw you heading towards me. Does a minor annoyance really rise to that level? They were polite, they made good, and what they told you about common practice for return shipping was true. So you were out, what, a buck-and-a-half for first-class postage? What if it had been FIVE bucks? What's the next level beyond "hate"?
>>>> There is also the factor of how you engage the person you're >>>> asking for help. I've learned over the years the (generally) >>>> right way to approach them. In this case, I immediately told >>>> the woman I was going to make an unreasonable request, and >>>> went light-heartedly from there. I made it clear that I didn't >>>> think they would honor my request, but it would have no >>>> bearing on whether I continued to buy from them. Which was >>>> true. In short, I didn't force her into a "NO!" corner.
>>> This really is the heart of the matter, so I'm glad that you >>> point to it, William. >>> A few years ago, someone initiated a thread here complaining >>> about rude service >>> from BRO.
>> You might as well raise my blood pressure regarding BRO as I >> suffer from low blood pressure; they are bastards plain and >> simple. During the last year or so, I contacted them (phone or >> email I can't recall) about a bronzed unplayable (ASV ?) disc >> they shipped to me. They checked their stock and informed me >> that all the remaining stock was similarly bronzed. I was told >> to return the item to for a credit which would then be applied >> to my next order. The cost of the return shipping was to be mine >> to bear being told this was standard practice in the industry >> world-wide. (The issue was discussed in the most polite manner >> imaginable.) Nevertheless I have continued to order from them, I >> had to at least once anyway, in order to get my credit :-), >> since they probably know all this, ethics and honesty went out >> the window. I hate their guts.
> Norman, if this is all it takes to make you "hate" someone and call them > "bastards," I would cross the street if I saw you heading towards me. > Does a > minor annoyance really rise to that level? They were polite, they made > good, and > what they told you about common practice for return shipping was true. So > you > were out, what, a buck-and-a-half for first-class postage? What if it had > been > FIVE bucks? What's the next level beyond "hate"?
Unlike you, it doesn't require things which can be measured in dollars and cents to enrage me. Moreover my neuropathy affects my equilibrium so if you crossed the street giving me more room to stumble about when you saw me coming, it would be best for the both of us. Additionally driving to the post office wearing a necessary brace on my right leg, then finding a handicapped space, possibly having to stand in a long line at the PO, and travelling back home is not as you think. As for the cost involved it's obviously best for me to have simply tossed the f*****g defective disc. If I were running the show at BRO I would have told the customer to discard the discard, offer an apology for having caused any inconvenience and asked the customer if he would like a refund in the form of a check, credit on a CC, or a credit on a future transaction. If a wanted to burn up some time I could have disputed the charge on my credit card for the cost of the disc + any postage involved and not have been responsible for anything further action.
>> They checked their stock and informed me that all the remaining >> stock was similarly bronzed. I was told to return the item to for a >> credit which would then be applied to my next order. The cost of >> the return shipping was to be mine to bear being told this was >> standard practice in the industry world-wide.
> It generally is. Few products carry a "full" warranty.
That doesn't afford any merchant to sell defective merchandise and ignorance is no excuse of the .........
> In this case, given that they had a whole lot of bad disks, BRO should > probably have absorbed the return costs, and asked ASV for some > restitution > when the bronzed disks were returned for credit.
All of that is BRO's problem and shouldn't be any of mine. They didn't obtain defective money from me and have no right sending me any defective articles.
Steve de Mena wrote: > William Sommerwerck wrote: >>>> My carefully considered analysis of the situation is that William >>>> is handling it as best he can. CD Universe gets Praise Without >>>> Penalty. We don't know the particulars, and we may never be >>>> confronted by those particulars. William is intimating that CD >>>> Universe will treat us well should things go awry. Assuming >>>> that William is not a shill, he is doing us a service.
>>> Wow. Some service.
>> Remind me in the future not to report any more of my experiences, good or >> bad, with businesses. Why should I give a damn about people whose >> response >> to a posting is to put the poster down?
> You are the one who left out details "Because I don't want you to know > what it was, I don't want people thinking > they can take advantage of the company."
> You feel that way about us and then wonder why some of us put you down???
>> You're stinking creeps, and you need to be told off in public. I am >> neither >> impressed nor intimidated.
> My God, William. There was an error in the listing of the price. Not > crediting you the difference would have been tantamount to theft, > not to mention really, really bad customer relations.
The error was DG's, not CD Universe's. Remember, HB also showed the wrong price, and was unable to explain the problem. Even the Arkiv price -- $20 -- was a couple of bucks higher than the usual price of the 20/21 series.
Perhaps DG will get back to me and explain this. But I'm not holding my breath!
William Sommerwerck wrote: >>> I recently had a problem with an order. The problem was not caused by CD >>> Universe, but by the manufacturer. I asked CD Universe if it would > resolve >>> the problem. And it did, without any arguing, even though CD Universe was >>> neither morally nor legally obliged to do so.
>> Isn't this standard customer service? Amazon, MDT and Tower Records >> (back in the day) have all done this for me.
> Okay, okay, okay...
> I hate doing this, but I'm going to have to tell you what actually happened. > Please don't use this as an excuse to abuse CD Universe's "good nature".
> I'd been wanting to buy the DG 20/21 disk of Boulez conducting Pli Selon > Pli. When I finally got around to ordering it from Arkiv, the $20 disk was > out of stock. My retail dealer (Silver Platters) had ordered it (on their > own, as an SKU), but it never showed up. It seemed it had been discontinued.
> HB (is that the name?) and CD Universe had stock. The former wanted about > $35, CD Universe about $32. HB told me that that /was/ the price, and they > had no idea why a single disk would sell for so much. (The others in that > series are $17 or so per disk.) So I gritted my teeth and ordered from CD > Universe. (This was not my first purchase from them.)
> Guess what... Two weeks after it arrives, Arkiv has it back in stock -- and > CD Universe is now selling it for $16.50!
> I knew this was DG's doing, not CD Universe's. I nevertheless called them, > and said "Look, I want to make an unreasonable request. Would you credit my > account for the difference?" They confabbed and said, /in this one > instance/, they would. The next day I placed an order to use the credit.
> Now do you understand? This was not a defective recording or missing disk. > It was a screw-up by DG that CD Universe was not responsible for. They > didn't have to make good, but they did.
> I've also contacted DG to complain about this, asking that they reimburse CD > Universe. Haven't heard anything yet.
> There's another issue I didn't discuss. CD Universe is a discount dealer. > You don't usually expect discount dealers to give you good service. They > did. And I was talking with someone in the US, too. It's nice to get a good > price, and good service.
Was this within 30 days of purchase? Amazon has a 30-day price guarantee that would have covered you in that case.....
Amazon doesn't publish their phone number though (or didn't used to). It is 1-800-201-7575, extension 7 and/or 1-866-216-1072.
> All of that is BRO's problem and shouldn't be any of mine. > They didn't obtain defective money from me and have no > right sending me any defective articles.
William Sommerwerck wrote: >> My God, William. There was an error in the listing of the price. Not >> crediting you the difference would have been tantamount to theft, >> not to mention really, really bad customer relations.
> The error was DG's, not CD Universe's.
I don't believe this is relevant. You were conducting business with CD Universe, not DG.
> Remember, HB also showed the > wrong price, and was unable to explain the problem.
Also irrelevant. The question is what they should do when they are made aware of the error.
Now as Libertarian/borderline anarchist, I suppose I should say that if you make a transaction at a mistaken price you should be held to it. Nobody twisted you arm. So when I said not refunding your money would be tantamount to theft, I make have mis-spoken. I think my head thinks one thing here and my heart another. In any case I would expect the vendor to not take advantage of a mistaken sales price as a matter of maintaining his reputation.
> William Sommerwerck wrote: >>> My God, William. There was an error in the listing of the price. >>> Not crediting you the difference would have been tantamount >>> to theft, not to mention really, really bad customer relations. >> The error was DG's, not CD Universe's. > I don't believe this is relevant. You were conducting business > with CD Universe, not DG. >> Remember, HB also showed the wrong price, and >> was unable to explain the problem. > Also irrelevant. The question is what they should do when they are made > aware of the error.
The "wrong" price appeared at two sites for at least several weeks. And I specifically asked HB -- a company I've had very nice relations with -- about it, and they said "that was the price". It's hard to believe that two companies got it wrong, then corrected it at the same time.
It looks like an accounting error, caused by DG providing the wrong wholesale price. I'm going to find out.
> Now as Libertarian/borderline anarchist, I suppose I should say that if you > make a transaction at a mistaken price you should be held to it. Nobody > twisted your arm.
No, but it looked as if the title had been discontinued. My local CD dealer had ordered it (independently of my desire for it) and it had not shown up.
> So when I said not refunding your money would be > tantamount to theft, I make have mis-spoken. I think my head thinks one > thing here and my heart another. In any case I would expect the vendor to > not take advantage of a mistaken sales price as a matter of maintaining his > reputation.
That's certainly true in principle.
As I haven't yet heard from DG, I think I'll call CD Universe next week and try to find out some more. It's possible that this sort of error is more common than we think.
About 12 years ago I questioned why the scanner in a local Safeway persistently rang up two or three items when I'd only purchased. (This had happened repeatedly over a period of a year.) When the manager checked, he found that the timeout on the laser scanner was set too short, producing multiple entries. This suggests that (as most people don't bother to check their purchases against the receipt -- which my mother taught me to do) this store might have overcharged customers by tens of thousands of dollars.
>>>> My God, William. There was an error in the listing of the price. >>>> Not crediting you the difference would have been tantamount >>>> to theft, not to mention really, really bad customer relations.
>>> The error was DG's, not CD Universe's.
>> I don't believe this is relevant. You were conducting business >> with CD Universe, not DG.
>>> Remember, HB also showed the wrong price, and >>> was unable to explain the problem.
>> Also irrelevant. The question is what they should do when they are >> made aware of the error.
> The "wrong" price appeared at two sites for at least several weeks. > And I specifically asked HB -- a company I've had very nice relations > with -- about it, and they said "that was the price". It's hard to > believe that two companies got it wrong, then corrected it at the > same time.
> It looks like an accounting error, caused by DG providing the wrong > wholesale price. I'm going to find out.
Of course it was DG's fault. Who said it wasn't? It just doesn't really matter.
William Sommerwerck wrote: >> My God, William. There was an error in the listing of the price. Not >> crediting you the difference would have been tantamount to theft, >> not to mention really, really bad customer relations.
> The error was DG's, not CD Universe's. Remember, HB also showed the wrong > price, and was unable to explain the problem. Even the Arkiv price -- $20 -- > was a couple of bucks higher than the usual price of the 20/21 series.
> Perhaps DG will get back to me and explain this. But I'm not holding my > breath!
Why would they explain anything to you? You deal with the vendor and the vendor deals with the distributor. (I wonder if the high price was an import copy sourced from another distributor).
>> All of that is BRO's problem and shouldn't be any of mine. >> They didn't obtain defective money from me and have no >> right sending me any defective articles.
> I thought I was grouchy. You're a farbissener!
BRO is in business, not I. They are in the business of taking my money and providing me with useful and playable recordings. I'm supposed to be able to play, listen to and enjoy those items.That should be the end of my involvement with any of it. As an Amazon seller if I ever learned that I sold a bronzed unplayable CD to a buyer, I would immediately refund his costs, no question asked. OTOH if I purchased a bronzed CD from Amazon seller, I'd contact the seller and expect the same treatment. If the seller refused to treat me properly with several mouse-clicks I'd be refunded my total purchase price through their A-Z gaurantee. I expect no less from the BRO.
If I were in William Sommerwercks shoe's having repeatedly posted being on the verge of suicide, I'd label myself a "farbissener!" !!! (sp?)
This morning I pulled out the PentaTone set of the BS, with Kurt Masur conducting the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra. (This is also the cycle in the Brilliant big box, though not in surround, of course.) I browsed all nine symphonies -- which took longer than I expected. The output of my SACD player directly fed a pair of STAX electrostatic headphones.
My first listening to this set was about nine months ago, at work, on a Sony D-25 Discman with Yamaha orthodynamic headphones. My initial reaction (to BS1) was ecstatic -- here was a conductor who gave the slow Haydnesque openings their due. (It's all too common to hear the conductor rush through them, as if they didn't matter.)
But the rest of the symphonies? My feeling (to the extent that I can remember it) was that Masur was involved in a kind of "tensionless twiddling", as if he was trying to present the music in the way it might have been performed long before it was written -- occasional music played at a dinner, perhaps. It simply didn't sound like Beethoven.
I'd planned to comment on the set in this group, but didn't feel like listening again to a box set I'd "wasted" $45 on. Then I was politely provoked to go into more detail.
The second listening was a revelation. Other than the thoughtfully performed intros (which were the same), it was as if I were hearing completely different performances. It's an excellent set, one of the best I've heard.
There are places where the tempos could be faster, and the first movements of the 3rd and 8th have too much majesty and not enough "Brillo". One the other hand, the 4th is exceptionally good, and the opening of the first movement of 7th (another Haydnesque introduction) holds your attention -- important in that the intro lasts almost 4 minutes. As for the 9th... Most recorded performances suck badly. Masur's does not.
There are places where I'd like to hear more "inflection" and contrast, and Masur ultimately misses Beethoven's "spiritual/ecstatic" quality, which some other conductors better reveal/revel in. But this is a first-rate set. "It's quality work." Nothing in it will pervert the musical tastes of the young'uns out there. ("Yer durn tootin'.")
Thanks for "forcing" me to give it a second listen.
How Beethoven Symphonies /Should/ Be Performed...
Listening to a terrific performance of the Schubert 8th on the radio the other day, I realized how much its first movement is like the first movement of the Eroica. (!!!) Both are built around wildly contrasting themes that seem to have nothing to do with each other. Maybe that was the idea.
I don't remember where I first read the observation that Beethoven was a master of creating and releasing tension. One way to create tension is with extreme contrast. It seems to me that most conductors are so focused on a more or less linear development of musical ideas that they overlook the possibility that that isn't always what Beethoven is most-interested in.
The last movement of the 8th demonstrates this, I feel. It continually moves from the lyrical to the rhythmic and back. Why shouldn't the conductor play this up? (Vanska does it very well. And note the syncopation at about 5:45 into the movment. *) One can reasonably assume that most composers write the sort of music /they/ would like to hear. Beethoven didn't jump up and down in front of the orchestra because he needed a little exercise. He was "a wild and crazy kind of guy". Why shouldn't the performances of his symphonies be informed by this?
I would especially like to hear Lena's reactions to these thoughts.
* I'm listening to the Vanska 8th as I write this. By a narrow margin, the best performance I've heard.
I had the Bernstein DG cycle on LP, but never cared for it. While the NYPO is all-around good-to-excellent, too many of the Berlin performances struck me as perverse. (I remember paying $65 for that set when it came out in 1980.)
I don't have the definitive London Festival performances by Krips. (And I wish there were a complete Reiner set. Stupid RCA. What a loss.) But I do have lots of Haydn. After 44 years of listening to classical music, I'm finally getting around to Haydn.
In article <hd4edf$d8...@news.eternal-september.org>, William Sommerwerck says...
[snip]
>The last movement of the 8th demonstrates this, I feel. It continually moves >from the lyrical to the rhythmic and back. Why shouldn't the conductor play >this up? (Vanska does it very well. And note the syncopation at about 5:45 >into the movment. *) One can reasonably assume that most composers write the >sort of music /they/ would like to hear. Beethoven didn't jump up and down >in front of the orchestra because he needed a little exercise. He was "a >wild and crazy kind of guy". Why shouldn't the performances of his >symphonies be informed by this?
Why not indeed; but if this means you think Vanska sounds "wild and crazy" in 8, we have vastly different understanding of what those words mean!
> >The last movement of the 8th demonstrates this, I feel. It continually moves > >from the lyrical to the rhythmic and back. Why shouldn't the conductor play > >this up? (Vanska does it very well. And note the syncopation at about 5:45 > >into the movment. *) One can reasonably assume that most composers write the > >sort of music /they/ would like to hear. Beethoven didn't jump up and down > >in front of the orchestra because he needed a little exercise. He was "a > >wild and crazy kind of guy". Why shouldn't the performances of his > >symphonies be informed by this? > Why not indeed; but if this means you think Vanska sounds "wild and crazy" in 8, > we have vastly different understanding of what those words mean!
One can be "wild and crazy" in a Classical sort of way. The broad point is that it's probably a mistake to see Beethoven's symphonies solely as exercises in Classical form.
William Sommerwerck wrote: > One can be "wild and crazy" in a Classical sort of way. The broad point is > that it's probably a mistake to see Beethoven's symphonies solely as > exercises in Classical form.
Hell, that would be more than a mere mistake; it would be musical blindness/deafness. The elasticity is there in #2, and gains from there. Even if one allows Haydn's shenanigans as 'expanded classical form', Beethoven took more liberties to get his other-than-perky ideas across. The question for me is whether his 'crossfires' and other manipulations were intended to delight the anal-ists rather than to create effects.
> In article <hd4edf$d8...@news.eternal-september.org>, William Sommerwerck > says...
> [snip]
>> The last movement of the 8th demonstrates this, I feel. It continually >> moves from the lyrical to the rhythmic and back. Why shouldn't the >> conductor play this up? (Vanska does it very well. And note the >> syncopation at about 5:45 into the movment. *) One can reasonably assume >> that most composers write the sort of music /they/ would like to hear. >> Beethoven didn't jump up and down in front of the orchestra because he >> needed a little exercise. He was "a wild and crazy kind of guy". Why >> shouldn't the performances of his symphonies be informed by this?
> Why not indeed; but if this means you think Vanska sounds "wild and > crazy" in 8, we have vastly different understanding of what those words > mean!
Wouldn't a "wild and crazy" performance be more likely to originate from Bratislava? Conducted by Maestro Festrunk?
-- Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks! Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
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