On Nov 3, 11:26 am, The Historian <neil.thehistor...@gmail.com> wrote:>
> >Does anyone have any recommendations for Haydn's "Hornsignal" symphonies? >>
A fine version of #31 that I've not seen on CD was the old Turnabout LP - Rilling/Stuttgart Bach Collegium - also a good version of #59, "Fire"
I also have Drahos, OK, not spectacular, and Harnoncourt from '92 - very brassy natural horns. An horn-playing buddy of mine loves the recording as a curiosity - says the horns sound like kazoos!!
I also have a version [mvt I only] of Dennis Brain with an English orchestra from London, 1952. good but not great, I still prefer Rilling. I wish it made it to CD.
the Drahos recording of Sym #51 on Naxos is very fine - with Swedish Cham Orch. very excellent horn playing - the high horn player repeatedly bulls-eyeing the stratospheric concert Bbs.
> > On Nov 3, 4:56 pm, Ricky Jimenez <ricky...@bestweb.net> wrote: > >> On 03 Nov 2009 17:30:09 GMT, Alan Cooper
> >> <amcoo...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote: > >>>> I am under the impression that in at least one symphony, Haydn > >>>> writes for 4 horns. Was that 31? > >>> Yes, and also 13 and 39 as well as 72. > >> I assume that he had the budget at Esterhazy to hire the extrra > >> players. I wonder why he didn't write for four for Paris and London. > >> I have read that the Paris orchestra was as large as a modern symphony > >> orchestra.
> > The band at Esterháza (note the count's name was Esterházy, but his > > residence was Esterháza) originally had 4 horn players. In the early > > 1760s one left, one died. These two were not immediately placed. In > > 1765, they got two new horn players and that is when Haydn wrote this > > symphony, and some of the others with 4 horns. The numbers are not > > necessarily in the chronologically correct order. 72 was written much > > earlier than the number suggests, not long after 31.
> Actually it was probably written a couple of years _before_ 31. Some > commentators think that 31 was more or less an "improved version" of 72, > as they are very similar with concertante elements, prominent horns and > variations as finale.
> I think one reason why Haydn did not write for four horns later was that > it would have made the pieces more difficult to produce elsewhere. Four > horn players must have been an extraordinary luxury that even Eszterhazy > wanted to afford only for a few years. Orchestral balance may have been > another consideration. If one takes into account that many of the > early/middle symphonies were done with about a dozen string players or > less (e.g. 4-3-2-1-1) two horns seem quite sufficient.
> Johannes
Mozart wrote for 4 horns on occasion as well: Symphony K. 132, Symphony K. 183 (the Little G minor), the Kyrie in d K. 341, the early opera Betulia Liberata K. 118 -- and of course the Gran Partita K. 361. Hiring 4 horn players was indeed probably something of an extravagance, but also it may have been reserved to make a special effect.
> >> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:22:45 -0600, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> > >> wrote:
> >>>Um, yes; besides, EA's horns play an octave too low.
> >> H.C.R.L. says if you use trumepts it is C basso. EA usses trumpets
> >Dorati, who uses Landon's edition, doesn't do that; nor does anyone else.
> >Simon
> Landon says theire is a choice
> C alto makes it sound ridiculous
> Abebdd
I wish you'd make up your mind. First, Robbins Landon says C basso with trumpets; now, there is a choice. Even with trumpets, the horns are still in C alto. And as Haydn knew exactly what he was doing, who are you to contradict him? Maybe the OSR couldn't play it as written, or weren't on top form when they recorded it (most orchestras have their off-days), but that doesn't mean that everyone else's performances are "ridiculous" -- and they aren't.
And before you start shouting "moron"; "stfu"; "you are totally clueless", and so on; we're *all* entitled to a point of view.
>> >> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:22:45 -0600, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> >> >> wrote:
>> >>>Um, yes; besides, EA's horns play an octave too low.
>> >> H.C.R.L. says if you use trumepts it is C basso. EA usses trumpets
>> >Dorati, who uses Landon's edition, doesn't do that; nor does anyone else.
>> >Simon
>> Landon says theire is a choice
>> C alto makes it sound ridiculous
>> Abebdd
>I wish you'd make up your mind. First, Robbins Landon says C basso >with trumpets; now, there is a choice. Even with trumpets, the horns >are still in C alto. And as Haydn knew exactly what he was doing, who >are you to contradict him? Maybe the OSR couldn't play it as written, >or weren't on top form when they recorded it (most orchestras have >their off-days), but that doesn't mean that everyone else's >performances are "ridiculous" -- and they aren't.
>And before you start shouting "moron"; "stfu"; "you are totally >clueless", and so on; we're *all* entitled to a point of view.
Whjy don't you read carefully what I wrote before you qoute me. Now STFU cluieless moron
You are entitled to a point of view. But to valiudate it by denying my credentials is bullshite
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 14:42:29 -0800 (PST), John <johntat...@ymail.com> > wrote:
> >On Nov 4, 10:08 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:22:05 -0600, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> > >> wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:22:45 -0600, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> > >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>Um, yes; besides, EA's horns play an octave too low.
> >> >> H.C.R.L. says if you use trumepts it is C basso. EA usses trumpets
> >> >Dorati, who uses Landon's edition, doesn't do that; nor does anyone else.
> >> >Simon
> >> Landon says theire is a choice
> >> C alto makes it sound ridiculous
> >> Abebdd
> >I wish you'd make up your mind. First, Robbins Landon says C basso > >with trumpets; now, there is a choice. Even with trumpets, the horns > >are still in C alto. And as Haydn knew exactly what he was doing, who > >are you to contradict him? Maybe the OSR couldn't play it as written, > >or weren't on top form when they recorded it (most orchestras have > >their off-days), but that doesn't mean that everyone else's > >performances are "ridiculous" -- and they aren't.
> >And before you start shouting "moron"; "stfu"; "you are totally > >clueless", and so on; we're *all* entitled to a point of view.
> Whjy don't you read carefully what I wrote before you qoute me.
Perhaps you should read what *I* wrote more carefully.
Now STFU cluieless moron
I knew you'd say that.
> You are entitled to a point of view. But to valiudate it by denying > my credentials is bullshite
Read my post again. You'll see that I haven't denied *anything*.
Anyway, have it your own way. I'm too tired to argue and I'm going to bed.
John wrote: > On Nov 4, 10:51 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 14:42:29 -0800 (PST), John <johntat...@ymail.com> > > wrote:
> > > On Nov 4, 10:08 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:22:05 -0600, Simon Roberts > > > > <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:22:45 -0600, Simon Roberts > > > > > > <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > Um, yes; besides, EA's horns play an octave too low.
> > > > > > H.C.R.L. says if you use trumepts it is C basso. EA usses > > > > > > trumpets
> > > > > Dorati, who uses Landon's edition, doesn't do that; nor does > > > > > anyone else.
> > > > > Simon
> > > > Landon says theire is a choice
> > > > C alto makes it sound ridiculous
> > > > Abebdd
> > > I wish you'd make up your mind. First, Robbins Landon says C basso > > > with trumpets; now, there is a choice. Even with trumpets, the > > > horns are still in C alto. And as Haydn knew exactly what he was > > > doing, who are you to contradict him? Maybe the OSR couldn't play > > > it as written, or weren't on top form when they recorded it (most > > > orchestras have their off-days), but that doesn't mean that > > > everyone else's performances are "ridiculous" -- and they aren't.
> > > And before you start shouting "moron"; "stfu"; "you are totally > > > clueless", and so on; we're *all* entitled to a point of view.
> > Whjy don't you read carefully what I wrote before you qoute me.
> Perhaps you should read what *I* wrote more carefully.
> Now STFU cluieless moron
> I knew you'd say that.
> > You are entitled to a point of view. But to valiudate it by denying > > my credentials is bullshite
> Read my post again. You'll see that I haven't denied *anything*.
> Anyway, have it your own way. I'm too tired to argue and I'm going to > bed.
On Nov 4, 12:05 pm, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> wrote: <snip>
> BTW has anyone heard the box of all the symphonies by Dennis Russell > Davies with a Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra?
> Johannes
Sorry, not yet. Another series of interest is Weil's new one of the London symphonies with the Cappella Coloniensis. I believe there are 2 discs available:
> John wrote: > > On Nov 4, 10:51 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 14:42:29 -0800 (PST), John <johntat...@ymail.com> > > > wrote:
> > > > On Nov 4, 10:08 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:22:05 -0600, Simon Roberts > > > > > <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:22:45 -0600, Simon Roberts > > > > > > > <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Um, yes; besides, EA's horns play an octave too low.
> > > > > > > H.C.R.L. says if you use trumepts it is C basso. EA usses > > > > > > > trumpets
> > > > > > Dorati, who uses Landon's edition, doesn't do that; nor does > > > > > > anyone else.
> > > > > > Simon
> > > > > Landon says theire is a choice
> > > > > C alto makes it sound ridiculous
> > > > > Abebdd
> > > > I wish you'd make up your mind. First, Robbins Landon says C basso > > > > with trumpets; now, there is a choice. Even with trumpets, the > > > > horns are still in C alto. And as Haydn knew exactly what he was > > > > doing, who are you to contradict him? Maybe the OSR couldn't play > > > > it as written, or weren't on top form when they recorded it (most > > > > orchestras have their off-days), but that doesn't mean that > > > > everyone else's performances are "ridiculous" -- and they aren't.
> > > > And before you start shouting "moron"; "stfu"; "you are totally > > > > clueless", and so on; we're *all* entitled to a point of view.
> > > Whjy don't you read carefully what I wrote before you qoute me.
> > Perhaps you should read what *I* wrote more carefully.
> > Now STFU cluieless moron
> > I knew you'd say that.
> > > You are entitled to a point of view. But to valiudate it by denying > > > my credentials is bullshite
> > Read my post again. You'll see that I haven't denied *anything*.
> > Anyway, have it your own way. I'm too tired to argue and I'm going to > > bed.
> Mozart wrote for 4 horns on occasion as well: Symphony K. 132, > Symphony K. 183 (the Little G minor), the Kyrie in d K. 341, the early > opera Betulia Liberata K. 118 -- and of course the Gran Partita K. > 361. Hiring 4 horn players was indeed probably something of an > extravagance, but also it may have been reserved to make a special > effect.
> Tom Wood
Mozart wrote to his father about a concert:
"The symphony went magnificently and had the greatest success. There were 40 violins, the wind instruments were all doubled, there were 10 violas, ten double basses, eight violoncellos and six bassoons."
He was very enthousiast about this specialoccasion, probably performing symphony No. 34. His Notturno KV 286 was written for 4 orchestras.
> I also have Drahos, OK, not spectacular, and Harnoncourt from '92 - > very brassy natural horns. An horn-playing buddy of mine loves the > recording as a curiosity - says the horns sound like kazoos!!
> I also have a version [mvt I only] of Dennis Brain with an English > orchestra from London, 1952. good but not great,
Ditto this. I forgot I had the Naxos recording by the American Horn Quartet, on a disc with the Schumann Konzertstuck and concertos by Handel and Telemann. It didn't make much of an impression.
I still prefer
> Rilling. I wish it made it to CD.
> the Drahos recording of Sym #51 on Naxos is very fine - with Swedish > Cham Orch. very excellent horn playing - the high horn player > repeatedly bulls-eyeing the stratospheric concert Bbs.
Agreed. I prefer it to Goberman, which I culled, and Schwarz/SCO, which I kept for the couplings.
On 4 Nov, 22:24, Tom Wood <twood1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mozart wrote for 4 horns on occasion as well: Symphony K. 132, > Symphony K. 183 (the Little G minor) ....
Far too much horn in K183, IMHO. For the minor key work Mozart obviously felt the need to have a pair pitched in each of the tonic and the relative major. For his later Gmin (no.40) he followed Haydn's practice for minor key symphonies - one in each key for the minor key movements. Hear, for example, the wonderful independent-part horn writing in Haydn's no.44, the Trauer, which I'm sure must have influenced Mozart's horn writing for No.40.
Leopold Ludwig, Conductor Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra HAYDN: Symphony Nº 31 in D Major "Hornsignal" HAYDN: Symphony Nº 73 in D Major "The Hunt" at http://www.haydnhouse.com/HH16.htm
These are a very good performances Pierre
"The Historian" <neil.thehistor...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>Does anyone have any recommendations for Haydn's "Hornsignal" symphonies? >>I >>am referring to his early symphonies with prominent horn parts, such as >>numbers 31 (The Hornsignal) and 72. What are the best recordings of these >>symphonies, and what other Haydn symphonies have virtuosic horn writing? I >>currently own two recordings of 31, both on Naxos - Toscanini and the NBC >>Symphony, and Drahos.
> Since then I've picked up the complete Haydn symphonies on Brilliant, > so I now have a third 31.
> My one recording of 72 is by The Hanover Band directed >>by Roy Goodman.
> And again, now a second 72.
> Simon Roberts the Haydnphile wrote:
> "For 31 Hogwood (exciting portamento on the leaps in the first > movement) and > Harnoncourt. Other symphonies to consider: 48, with its horns-as- > trumpets > brilliance (Solomons/Sony), and 51 with its virtuosic writing for one > very high > and one very low horn, which go in opposite directions in the slow > movement (and > elsewhere) (Bruggen/Philips).
> "Other symphonies have prominent horn parts, if not to the extent of > the above, > either alone or joined with trumpets (to thrilling effect in 56 and > 90, for > example), but its hard to find recordings where they are afforded the > requisite > prominence - e.g., it's frustrating to read Landon going on about the > screaming > high horns in the finale of 52 and then listen to recordings where, if > you can > hear them at all, they sound more like slightly overweight clarinets > (Pinnock > comes closest in 52/iv but unfortunately omits the repeat)."
> Any changes in recommendations over the past few years? Aside from the > Fischer set on Brilliant, I've individual recordings of 51 (Gobermann, > Drahos) and 73 (Goodman.) Any other recordings in which the horns ring > out?
> > Any changes in recommendations over the past few years? Aside from the > > Fischer set on Brilliant, I've individual recordings of 51 (Gobermann, > > Drahos) and 73 (Goodman.) Any other recordings in which the horns ring > > out?
> For 56, Hogwood (Oiseau Lyre), Goberman (on CD via Haydn House; avoid the > vile English CBS LP)) and Solomons (not on CD, but someone recently posted > all of his to concertarchive or symphonyshare, I think). I look forward to > Fey's getting around to them....
> Simon
Don't you think that Fey is a little bit . . . brash and brazen?
I find his records the hardest HIPs to like. The prominence of the brass and the
"sudden disorientating changes in dynamics and tempo."
Exactly the problem with Fey. Sound like too much Harnoncourt type manipulation! I do like the gutsy brass and timpani though Pierre
> On Nov 4, 4:27 pm, Heck51 <dgallagh...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > On Nov 3, 11:26 am, The Historian <neil.thehistor...@gmail.com> > > wrote:>
> > > >Does anyone have any recommendations for Haydn's "Hornsignal" symphonies? >>
> > A fine version of #31 that I've not seen on CD was the old Turnabout > > LP - > > Rilling/Stuttgart Bach Collegium - also a good version of #59, "Fire"
> That "Fire" turns up on an old Concerto Royale set:
> > I also have Drahos, OK, not spectacular, and Harnoncourt from '92 - > > very brassy natural horns. An horn-playing buddy of mine loves the > > recording as a curiosity - says the horns sound like kazoos!!
> > I also have a version [mvt I only] of Dennis Brain with an English > > orchestra from London, 1952. good but not great,
> Ditto this. I forgot I had the Naxos recording by the American Horn > Quartet, on a disc with the Schumann Konzertstuck and concertos by > Handel and Telemann. It didn't make much of an impression.
It still doesn't. Fischer is much better in the Hornsignal, and in the Schumann the American Horn Quintet is no threat to the supremacy of the CSO/Barenboim recording.
> I still prefer
> > Rilling. I wish it made it to CD.
> > the Drahos recording of Sym #51 on Naxos is very fine - with Swedish > > Cham Orch. very excellent horn playing - the high horn player > > repeatedly bulls-eyeing the stratospheric concert Bbs.
> Agreed. I prefer it to Goberman, which I culled, and Schwarz/SCO, > which I kept for the couplings.
> > On Nov 3, 3:52 pm, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> wrote: > >> The Historian <neil.thehistor...@gmail.com> wrote > >> innews:edba52ea-5c5e-4f > > 53-ad3a-93dd98d3c...@d10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
> >> > Six years ago I wrote:
> >> > Any changes in recommendations over the past few years? Aside from > >> > the Fischer set on Brilliant, I've individual recordings of 51 > >> > (Gobermann, Drahos) and 73 (Goodman.) Any other recordings in which > >> > the horns ring out?
> >> For 56, Hogwood (Oiseau Lyre), Goberman (on CD via Haydn House; avoid > >> the vile English CBS LP)) and Solomons (not on CD, but someone > >> recently poste > > d > >> all of his to concertarchive or symphonyshare, I think). I look > >> forwar > > d to > >> Fey's getting around to them....
> >> Simon
> > How about 90? I have Fischer and Kuijken. The horns are too polite in > > both, but less so in Kuijken's recording. You know who has posted EA/ > > OSR, but I'd rather not go there.....
> Um, yes; besides, EA's horns play an octave too low. Everyone's horns > are too polite for my taste in this work (including Goodman's, which, > unique on discs, uses an edition which omits trumpets and timpani but > keeps the alto horns). I prefer Bruggen to Kuijken - similar sonority, > but he generates more swagger (more than Weil does, too). Blum is very > disappointing after his magnificent 60, but Dorati is surprisingly good > here; one of the best performances in his decidedly uneven box. > Rattle/BPO is one of his better efforts, especially in the finale.
Is the latest reissue of the Dorati Haydn symphonies an improvement over the 1991 transfers? The 1991 boxes come with notes and are available cheaply from Amazon resellers. I might buy a box or two rather than get the entire 33 disc set.
> On Nov 5, 1:23 am, The Historian <neil.thehistor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 4, 4:27 pm, Heck51 <dgallagh...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > On Nov 3, 11:26 am, The Historian <neil.thehistor...@gmail.com> > > > wrote:>
> > > > >Does anyone have any recommendations for Haydn's "Hornsignal" symphonies? >>
> > > A fine version of #31 that I've not seen on CD was the old Turnabout > > > LP - > > > Rilling/Stuttgart Bach Collegium - also a good version of #59, "Fire"
> > That "Fire" turns up on an old Concerto Royale set:
> > > I also have Drahos, OK, not spectacular, and Harnoncourt from '92 - > > > very brassy natural horns. An horn-playing buddy of mine loves the > > > recording as a curiosity - says the horns sound like kazoos!!
> > > I also have a version [mvt I only] of Dennis Brain with an English > > > orchestra from London, 1952. good but not great,
> > Ditto this. I forgot I had the Naxos recording by the American Horn > > Quartet, on a disc with the Schumann Konzertstuck and concertos by > > Handel and Telemann. It didn't make much of an impression.
> It still doesn't. Fischer is much better in the Hornsignal, and in the > Schumann the American Horn Quintet is no threat to the supremacy of > the CSO/Barenboim recording.
> > I still prefer
> > > Rilling. I wish it made it to CD.
> > > the Drahos recording of Sym #51 on Naxos is very fine - with Swedish > > > Cham Orch. very excellent horn playing - the high horn player > > > repeatedly bulls-eyeing the stratospheric concert Bbs.
> > Agreed. I prefer it to Goberman, which I culled, and Schwarz/SCO, > > which I kept for the couplings.
> And I slightly prefer Fischer here.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
Well I have just bought Drahos's 51 for 35p new from amzon! I am looking forward to comparing it with my only other 51 -- Weil/ Tafelmusik.
> Is the latest reissue of the Dorati Haydn symphonies an improvement > over the 1991 transfers? The 1991 boxes come with notes and are > available cheaply from Amazon resellers. I might buy a box or two > rather than get the entire 33 disc set.
To the extent you're asking me, I'm afraid I don't know - I have the 1991 version.
> > Is the latest reissue of the Dorati Haydn symphonies an improvement > > over the 1991 transfers? The 1991 boxes come with notes and are > > available cheaply from Amazon resellers. I might buy a box or two > > rather than get the entire 33 disc set.
> To the extent you're asking me, I'm afraid I don't know - I have the 1991 > version.
> Simon
How many reissues are there? My box says 1996, and it sounds fine to me.
On Nov 5, 9:27 am, "Pierre Paquin" <HaydnHo...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Leopold Ludwig, > Conductor > Bavarian Radio Symphony > Orchestra HAYDN: Symphony Nº 31 in D Major "Hornsignal" > HAYDN: Symphony Nº 73 in D Major "The Hunt" > athttp://www.haydnhouse.com/HH16.htm
> These are a very good performances > Pierre
I haven't heard Leopold Ludwig in classical repertory, but I've been knocked out by everything I've heard him conduct. The only other performance of Lulu I like as well as the EMI recording with Leopold Ludwig is Bruno Maderna on the RAI. Both are the unfinished version, of course.
david7ga...@aol.com wrote: > On Nov 5, 9:27 am, "Pierre Paquin" <HaydnHo...@comcast.net> wrote: >> Leopold Ludwig, >> Conductor >> Bavarian Radio Symphony >> Orchestra HAYDN: Symphony Nº 31 in D Major "Hornsignal" >> HAYDN: Symphony Nº 73 in D Major "The Hunt" >> athttp://www.haydnhouse.com/HH16.htm
>> These are a very good performances >> Pierre
> I haven't heard Leopold Ludwig in classical repertory, but I've been > knocked out by everything I've heard him conduct. The only other > performance of Lulu I like as well as the EMI recording with Leopold > Ludwig is Bruno Maderna on the RAI. Both are the unfinished version, > of course.
> -david gable
His accompaniment of Emil Gilels in Beethoven's 4th Concerto (Philharmonia O) is outstanding.
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