I've started a big pot of okra cooking to make some gumbo. Earlier today I roasted a bunch of flour in the oven until it almost looks like cocoa. (can make 5 or 6 pots of gumbo now without making a roux, and the roasted flour keeps forever) Good thing it's unseasonably warm today so I could open the windows -- I thought I had burned the flour, but it turned out just right. Glad Wife isn't home, "What's burning?!" :-) I learned that trick from my great Aunt Mary, although she roasted just enough flour for one batch, and she used an iron skillet; just like making a dark roux but without the fat.
When the okra is done, I'll sauté the trinity (onions, bell pepper, and celery) in chicken fat, then it add to the okra, 1/2 cup of the roasted flour, a 20-something ounce can of tomatoes, homemade chicken stock (made last weekend), chicken meat, sliced sausages, spices, etc.
How heretical would it be to substitute jalapeños for the bell pepper, then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe I've ever seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous addition of cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the jalapeño flavor be wrong somehow?
Gotta go stir the okra so *it* doesn't burn... Bob
zxcvbob <zxcv...@charter.net> wrote in news:7llsncF3f70quU1 @mid.individual.net:
> How heretical would it be to substitute jalape¤os for the bell > pepper, then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe > I've ever seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous > addition of cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the > jalape¤o flavor be wrong somehow?
Unless it's all for you, I'd leave the heat up to the familyfriends/guests to choose.
zxcvbob wrote: > I've started a big pot of okra cooking to make some gumbo. Earlier > today I roasted a bunch of flour in the oven until it almost looks > like cocoa. (can make 5 or 6 pots of gumbo now without making a roux, > and the roasted flour keeps forever) Good thing it's unseasonably > warm today so I could open the windows -- I thought I had burned the > flour, but it turned out just right. Glad Wife isn't home, "What's > burning?!" :-) I learned that trick from my great Aunt Mary, although > she roasted just enough flour for one batch, and she used an iron > skillet; just like making a dark roux but without the fat.
> When the okra is done, I'll sauté the trinity (onions, bell pepper, > and celery) in chicken fat, then it add to the okra, 1/2 cup of the > roasted flour, a 20-something ounce can of tomatoes, homemade chicken > stock (made last weekend), chicken meat, sliced sausages, spices, etc.
> How heretical would it be to substitute jalapeños for the bell pepper, > then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe I've ever > seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous addition of > cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the jalapeño flavor > be wrong somehow?
Jalapeno would taste pretty good, if you and your family likes the taste, and the heat. I have always used cayenne, as far as I can remember. I may try jalapeno some day, they usually grow like crazy. I have not looked at mine in the last few days, but my bell peppers are still growing. BTW, I think you would still need the bell pepper for flavor, and maybe the jalapeno for heat.
In 1998 I posted the message below, I had a convection oven, which was fairly new, and I was roasting flour in the oven, forgetting that I could not reach into the oven and stir the flour, while the fan was still turning. Oh well, you live and learn. :-)
Another way to make a fat free roux is to brown the flour using your oven. Careful trying this if your oven is convection (yikes). You stir periodically, but it does not require constant stirring, like it does over direct heat.
Becca <-----tries not to make the same mistake twice...
Becca wrote: > zxcvbob wrote: >> I've started a big pot of okra cooking to make some gumbo. Earlier >> today I roasted a bunch of flour in the oven until it almost looks >> like cocoa. (can make 5 or 6 pots of gumbo now without making a roux, >> and the roasted flour keeps forever) Good thing it's unseasonably >> warm today so I could open the windows -- I thought I had burned the >> flour, but it turned out just right. Glad Wife isn't home, "What's >> burning?!" :-) I learned that trick from my great Aunt Mary, although >> she roasted just enough flour for one batch, and she used an iron >> skillet; just like making a dark roux but without the fat.
>> When the okra is done, I'll sauté the trinity (onions, bell pepper, >> and celery) in chicken fat, then it add to the okra, 1/2 cup of the >> roasted flour, a 20-something ounce can of tomatoes, homemade chicken >> stock (made last weekend), chicken meat, sliced sausages, spices, etc.
>> How heretical would it be to substitute jalapeños for the bell pepper, >> then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe I've ever >> seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous addition of >> cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the jalapeño flavor >> be wrong somehow?
> Jalapeno would taste pretty good, if you and your family likes the > taste, and the heat. I have always used cayenne, as far as I can > remember. I may try jalapeno some day, they usually grow like crazy. I > have not looked at mine in the last few days, but my bell peppers are > still growing. BTW, I think you would still need the bell pepper for > flavor, and maybe the jalapeno for heat.
> In 1998 I posted the message below, I had a convection oven, which was > fairly new, and I was roasting flour in the oven, forgetting that I > could not reach into the oven and stir the flour, while the fan was > still turning. Oh well, you live and learn. :-)
> Another way to make a fat free roux is to brown the flour using your > oven. Careful trying this if your oven is convection (yikes). You > stir periodically, but it does not require constant stirring, like it > does over direct heat.
> Becca <-----tries not to make the same mistake twice...
You have impressed me to no end. 1998? Your mind is obviously a steel trap.
Please remind me to never anger you.
Bob
P.S. Thanks for the oven/roux trick. I would have never considered doing that.
> Aunt Mary, although she roasted just enough flour for one batch, and > she used an iron skillet; just like making a dark roux but without > the fat.
First time I've seen (note!) this brought up on rfc. I also learned to brown roux by toasting flour in skillet, but later did cajun/creole style rouxs by heating flour/fat together. Not sure diff in flavor. I suspect the flour/fat combo approach would be more flavorful, flavor being more seeped into the oil over longer period of time. What say the cooking brethren?
On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 19:53:08 GMT, notbob <not...@nothome.com> wrote:
>> Aunt Mary, although she roasted just enough flour for one batch, and >> she used an iron skillet; just like making a dark roux but without >> the fat.
>First time I've seen (note!) this brought up on rfc. I also learned >to brown roux by toasting flour in skillet, but later did cajun/creole >style rouxs by heating flour/fat together. Not sure diff in flavor. >I suspect the flour/fat combo approach would be more flavorful, flavor >being more seeped into the oil over longer period of time. What say >the cooking brethren?
>nb
Restaurants that specialize in roux based dishes buy flour already browned (to various degrees) or make it up themselves by baking flour in large roasting pans with occasional stirring... none make roux in tiny individual batches as seen on foodtv. I posted an article about this years ago... it was written by one of those Weeziana chefs whose name I can't recall right now. I've always browned flour for a roux dry.
On 2009-11-07, brooklyn1 <gravesen...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Restaurants that specialize in roux based dishes buy flour already > browned (to various degrees) or make it up themselves by baking flour > in large roasting pans with occasional stirring... none make roux in > tiny individual batches as seen on foodtv. I posted an article about > this years ago... it was written by one of those Weeziana chefs whose > name I can't recall right now. I've always browned flour for a roux > dry.
Point taken, Shel, but only clarifies diffs. Done a side-by-side comparison? I know one major difference. Cooking oil/flour roux together makes for less thickening power. Many classic gumbo recipes call for sauteing veggies in finished roux and a dry flour darkened roux would make for a near paste upon combining and be worthless for sauteing in many cajun/creole dishes.
zxcvbob <zxcv...@charter.net> wrote: > How heretical would it be to substitute jalapeños for the bell > pepper, then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe > I've ever seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous > addition of cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the > jalapeño flavor be wrong somehow?
It would be wrong. I'd call the Gumbo Gendarmes. Unless you named it something other than gumbo. How about something like Minnesota Sausage Chicken Not-Gumbo Dish with Jalapeños. Yeah, that's the ticket. -- -Barb, Mother Superior, gotta stir my browning ground beef . It might be tacos next week.
notbob wrote: > On 2009-11-07, brooklyn1 <gravesen...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Restaurants that specialize in roux based dishes buy flour already >> browned (to various degrees) or make it up themselves by baking flour >> in large roasting pans with occasional stirring... none make roux in >> tiny individual batches as seen on foodtv. I posted an article about >> this years ago... it was written by one of those Weeziana chefs whose >> name I can't recall right now. I've always browned flour for a roux >> dry.
> Point taken, Shel, but only clarifies diffs. Done a side-by-side > comparison? I know one major difference. Cooking oil/flour roux > together makes for less thickening power. Many classic gumbo recipes > call for sauteing veggies in finished roux and a dry flour darkened > roux would make for a near paste upon combining and be worthless for > sauteing in many cajun/creole dishes.
> nb
You saute the vegetables in a little fat (you can use much less than it takes to make a roux -- but don't make the dish *too* low in fat.) Add the roasted flour later, just before adding the stock. The roasted flour (one shade lighter than cocoa) has about 1/2 the thickening of white flour, just like dark roux, and it doesn't tend to clump.
>> Another way to make a fat free roux is to brown the flour using your >> oven. Careful trying this if your oven is convection (yikes). You >> stir periodically, but it does not require constant stirring, like it >> does over direct heat.
>> Becca <-----tries not to make the same mistake twice...
> You have impressed me to no end. 1998? Your mind is obviously a steel > trap.
> Please remind me to never anger you.
> Bob
> P.S. Thanks for the oven/roux trick. I would have never considered > doing that.
Don't be too impressed, I had to look it up on Google Groups. lol
BTW, I have cooked roux in the microwave using equal parts of flour and oil. It gets very hot, so you have to stop cooking it before it gets too dark, or it will continue to cook. When the time is right, you can stir in onions and peppers to cool it down. I like doing this in the microwave, because you do not have to constantly stir it.
>> How heretical would it be to substitute jalapeños for the bell >> pepper, then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe >> I've ever seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous >> addition of cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the >> jalapeño flavor be wrong somehow?
>It would be wrong. I'd call the Gumbo Gendarmes. Unless you named it >something other than gumbo. >How about something like Minnesota Sausage Chicken Not-Gumbo Dish with >Jalapeños. Yeah, that's the ticket.
How about Minnysoda Tex-Mex Gumbo with sausage and chicken.
-- I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
zxcvbob <zxcv...@charter.net> wrote: > I've started a big pot of okra cooking to make some gumbo. Earlier > today I roasted a bunch of flour in the oven until it almost looks > like cocoa. (can make 5 or 6 pots of gumbo now without making a > roux, and the roasted flour keeps forever) Good thing it's > unseasonably warm today so I could open the windows -- I thought I > had burned the flour, but it turned out just right. Glad Wife isn't > home, "What's burning?!" :-) I learned that trick from my great > Aunt Mary, although she roasted just enough flour for one batch, and > she used an iron skillet; just like making a dark roux but without > the fat.
> When the okra is done, I'll sauté the trinity (onions, bell pepper, > and celery) in chicken fat, then it add to the okra, 1/2 cup of the > roasted flour, a 20-something ounce can of tomatoes, homemade > chicken stock (made last weekend), chicken meat, sliced sausages, > spices, etc.
> How heretical would it be to substitute jalapeños for the bell > pepper, then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe > I've ever seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous > addition of cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the > jalapeño flavor be wrong somehow?
> Gotta go stir the okra so *it* doesn't burn... > Bob
You can do whatever you want Bob. :-) There really are few hard and fast rules!
I think that sounds good, but I'm not a bell pepper fan! -- Peace! Om
"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down." --Steve Rothstein
Becca <be...@hal-pc.org> wrote: > BTW, I have cooked roux in the microwave using equal parts of flour and > oil. It gets very hot, so you have to stop cooking it before it gets > too dark, or it will continue to cook. When the time is right, you can > stir in onions and peppers to cool it down. I like doing this in the > microwave, because you do not have to constantly stir it.
Thanks for that tip Becca. :-)
Om -> wondering about subbing rice flour... -- Peace! Om
"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down." --Steve Rothstein
>> How heretical would it be to substitute jalapeños for the bell >> pepper, then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe >> I've ever seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous >> addition of cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the >> jalapeño flavor be wrong somehow?
> It would be wrong. I'd call the Gumbo Gendarmes. Unless you named it > something other than gumbo. > How about something like Minnesota Sausage Chicken Not-Gumbo Dish with > Jalapeños. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Or Yummy Not-Gumbo for short.
Just be sure to close the shade and don't answer the door and you'll be OK. Let us know how it turns out, willya?
>>> How heretical would it be to substitute jalapeños for the bell >>> pepper, then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe I've >>> ever seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous addition >>> of cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the jalapeño >>> flavor be wrong somehow?
>> It would be wrong. I'd call the Gumbo Gendarmes. Unless you named it >> something other than gumbo. How about something like Minnesota >> Sausage Chicken Not-Gumbo Dish with Jalapeños. Yeah, that's the ticket.
> Or Yummy Not-Gumbo for short.
> Just be sure to close the shade and don't answer the door and you'll be > OK. Let us know how it turns out, willya?
> gloria p
I wussed out and used bell peppers and cayenne. I may slice up a couple of jalapeños in my bowl.
>>> Another way to make a fat free roux is to brown the flour using your >>> oven. Careful trying this if your oven is convection (yikes). You >>> stir periodically, but it does not require constant stirring, like it >>> does over direct heat.
>>> Becca <-----tries not to make the same mistake twice...
>> You have impressed me to no end. 1998? Your mind is obviously a steel >> trap.
>> Please remind me to never anger you.
>> Bob
>> P.S. Thanks for the oven/roux trick. I would have never considered >> doing that.
> Don't be too impressed, I had to look it up on Google Groups. lol
> BTW, I have cooked roux in the microwave using equal parts of flour and > oil. It gets very hot, so you have to stop cooking it before it gets > too dark, or it will continue to cook. When the time is right, you can > stir in onions and peppers to cool it down. I like doing this in the > microwave, because you do not have to constantly stir it.
> Becca
Thank you for the second tip today :-) I do love good stews, so a good roux is something I have a need for.
Omelet wrote: > In article <7llsncF3f70q...@mid.individual.net>, > zxcvbob <zxcv...@charter.net> wrote:
>> I've started a big pot of okra cooking to make some gumbo. Earlier >> today I roasted a bunch of flour in the oven until it almost looks >> like cocoa. (can make 5 or 6 pots of gumbo now without making a >> roux, and the roasted flour keeps forever) Good thing it's >> unseasonably warm today so I could open the windows -- I thought I >> had burned the flour, but it turned out just right. Glad Wife isn't >> home, "What's burning?!" :-) I learned that trick from my great >> Aunt Mary, although she roasted just enough flour for one batch, and >> she used an iron skillet; just like making a dark roux but without >> the fat.
>> When the okra is done, I'll sauté the trinity (onions, bell pepper, >> and celery) in chicken fat, then it add to the okra, 1/2 cup of the >> roasted flour, a 20-something ounce can of tomatoes, homemade >> chicken stock (made last weekend), chicken meat, sliced sausages, >> spices, etc.
>> How heretical would it be to substitute jalapeños for the bell >> pepper, then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe >> I've ever seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous >> addition of cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the >> jalapeño flavor be wrong somehow?
>> Gotta go stir the okra so *it* doesn't burn... >> Bob
> You can do whatever you want Bob. :-) There really are few hard and fast > rules!
> I think that sounds good, but I'm not a bell pepper fan!
But I bet you would eat it if you had enough lemon/pepper sprinkled on it :-)
On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 12:31:03 -0600, zxcvbob <zxcv...@charter.net> wrote:
>How heretical would it be to substitute jalapeños for the bell >pepper, then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe >I've ever seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous >addition of cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the >jalapeño flavor be wrong somehow?
S'true, true!
I have eaten gumbo made with cubanelle (read: hungarian sweet wax) peppers instead of bell. It works. Jalapeno? I think not. The heat is not the issue, but the flavor is way off.
HTH
Alex, owner of a camera that went through resurrection.
zxcvbob wrote: > I've started a big pot of okra cooking to make some gumbo. Earlier > today I roasted a bunch of flour in the oven until it almost looks > like cocoa. (can make 5 or 6 pots of gumbo now without making a > roux, and the roasted flour keeps forever) Good thing it's > unseasonably warm today so I could open the windows -- I thought I > had burned the flour, but it turned out just right. Glad Wife isn't > home, "What's burning?!" :-) I learned that trick from my great > Aunt Mary, although she roasted just enough flour for one batch, and > she used an iron skillet; just like making a dark roux but without > the fat.
> When the okra is done, I'll sauté the trinity (onions, bell pepper, > and celery) in chicken fat, then it add to the okra, 1/2 cup of the > roasted flour, a 20-something ounce can of tomatoes, homemade > chicken stock (made last weekend), chicken meat, sliced sausages, > spices, etc. > How heretical would it be to substitute jalapeños for the bell > pepper, then leave out the cayenne? Every decent-looking recipe > I've ever seen for gumbo called for bell peppers, then a generous > addition of cayenne pepper added later with the spices. Would the > jalapeño flavor be wrong somehow?
Not at all, I use japs all the time in gumbo, Bob...
There is no "heretical" in making gumbo, just follow the basic recipe, e.g the roux and the "trinity"...the last coupla times I made it I added a can of diced tomatoes, not something I'd usually do, but it added a real *depth* to the flavor. I do the roux and the browning of the various ingredients on the stove, then put all into a crockpot for a long a slooooow cook...
FYI my basic recipe is from the Paul Prudhomme cookbooks and his website...
Gregory Morrow wrote: > There is no "heretical" in making gumbo, just follow the basic recipe, e.g > the roux and the "trinity"...the last coupla times I made it I added a can > of diced tomatoes, not something I'd usually do, but it added a real *depth* > to the flavor. I do the roux and the browning of the various ingredients on > the stove, then put all into a crockpot for a long a slooooow cook...
> FYI my basic recipe is from the Paul Prudhomme cookbooks and his website...
My basic recipe is from an early 90's issue of _Chile Pepper_ magazine. It's unusual in that you cook the okra first (a *lot* of okra) in a little oil until the sliminess is gone; the okra is reduced by at least half. Then you add the roux and sautéed vegetables, then the rest of the stuff.
>> There is no "heretical" in making gumbo, just follow the basic recipe, >> e.g the roux and the "trinity"...the last coupla times I made it I >> added a can of diced tomatoes, not something I'd usually do, but it >> added a real *depth* to the flavor. I do the roux and the browning of >> the various ingredients on the stove, then put all into a crockpot for >> a long a slooooow cook...
>> FYI my basic recipe is from the Paul Prudhomme cookbooks and his >> website...
> My basic recipe is from an early 90's issue of _Chile Pepper_ > magazine. It's unusual in that you cook the okra first (a *lot* of > okra) in a little oil until the sliminess is gone; the okra is > reduced by at least half. Then you add the roux and sautéed > vegetables, then the rest of the stuff.
> Bob
Could you please post that recipe, Bob?
TIA
--
~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~
>> There is no "heretical" in making gumbo, just follow the basic recipe, >> e.g >> the roux and the "trinity"...the last coupla times I made it I added a >> can >> of diced tomatoes, not something I'd usually do, but it added a real >> *depth* >> to the flavor. I do the roux and the browning of the various >> ingredients on >> the stove, then put all into a crockpot for a long a slooooow cook...
>> FYI my basic recipe is from the Paul Prudhomme cookbooks and his >> website...
> My basic recipe is from an early 90's issue of _Chile Pepper_ magazine. > It's unusual in that you cook the okra first (a *lot* of okra) in a > little oil until the sliminess is gone; the okra is reduced by at least > half. Then you add the roux and sautéed vegetables, then the rest of > the stuff.
> Bob
What do you then use to thicken your gumbo? Around here folks add the chopped okra to the gumbo early on to allow the "slime" to thicken the soup. I do it that way too and there is no slimy okra by the time the gumbo is done. At least to my taste buds. I don't eat stewed okra and tomatoes because of the slime factor, again to my taste buds.
George Shirley wrote: > zxcvbob wrote: >> Gregory Morrow wrote:
>>> There is no "heretical" in making gumbo, just follow the basic >>> recipe, e.g >>> the roux and the "trinity"...the last coupla times I made it I added >>> a can >>> of diced tomatoes, not something I'd usually do, but it added a real >>> *depth* >>> to the flavor. I do the roux and the browning of the various >>> ingredients on >>> the stove, then put all into a crockpot for a long a slooooow cook...
>>> FYI my basic recipe is from the Paul Prudhomme cookbooks and his >>> website...
>> My basic recipe is from an early 90's issue of _Chile Pepper_ >> magazine. It's unusual in that you cook the okra first (a *lot* of >> okra) in a little oil until the sliminess is gone; the okra is reduced >> by at least half. Then you add the roux and sautéed vegetables, then >> the rest of the stuff.
>> Bob
> What do you then use to thicken your gumbo? Around here folks add the > chopped okra to the gumbo early on to allow the "slime" to thicken the > soup. I do it that way too and there is no slimy okra by the time the > gumbo is done. At least to my taste buds. I don't eat stewed okra and > tomatoes because of the slime factor, again to my taste buds.
The slime sort of comes back when you add the wet ingredients. Plus, the roux thickens it. You could add filé powder at the end if it needs a little more snot. :-) Here's the recipe: (I used chicken and sausage this time instead of turkey legs, and I already had stock)
Bob's Turkey Gumbo (adapted from a recipe in Chile Pepper magazine)
2 large turkey legs 2 chicken bouillon cubes 2 1/2 quarts water 2 pounds sliced okra 1/2 cup oil (divided) 1/2 cup flour 1 large bell pepper, chopped 1 bunch green onions, chopped 1 yellow onion, chopped 2 cloves garlic 1 (20 ounce) can tomatoes 1 1/2 teaspoon salt (to taste) 1 large bay leaf 2 stalks celery 1 teaspoon each: cayenne, thyme, basil, black pepper garlic powder to taste (optional)
Boil or pressure-cook the turkey, water, bouillon cubes, and bay leaf until meat is tender. Remove turkey legs from stock and allow to cool; remove meat from bones, chop, set aside. Break the bones and add back to stock, with skin, gristle, etc. Put on back burner to simmer. Meanwhile, sauté okra in 1/4 cup oil in a heavy pot until all ropiness is gone (about 1 hour). Combine remaining 1/4 cup oil and flour in an iron skillet and cook over medium heat, stirring constantly until flour is chocolate brown. Be careful not to burn it! Add onions, celery, garlic and bell pepper to the roux and sauté until tender. Add roux-vegetables mixture to the okra, add tomatoes, meat, strained turkey stock, cayenne, black pepper and thyme. Add another bay leaf or two if you like bay leaves. Simmer, partially covered for half hour. Add basil and salt, simmer another 10 minutes. Adjust seasoning with salt and/or garlic powder, if needed. Serve over long-grain white rice.
In article <rLWdnWD5evuFTGvXnZ2dnUVZ_uidn...@giganews.com>, George Shirley <gsh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > My basic recipe is from an early 90's issue of _Chile Pepper_ magazine. > > It's unusual in that you cook the okra first (a *lot* of okra) in a > > little oil until the sliminess is gone; the okra is reduced by at least > > half. Then you add the roux and sautéed vegetables, then the rest of > > the stuff.
> > Bob
> What do you then use to thicken your gumbo? Around here folks add the > chopped okra to the gumbo early on to allow the "slime" to thicken the > soup. I do it that way too and there is no slimy okra by the time the > gumbo is done. At least to my taste buds. I don't eat stewed okra and > tomatoes because of the slime factor, again to my taste buds.
I've used sliced okra in soups sometimes and I never have to add a thickener to that. ;-) -- Peace! Om
"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down." --Steve Rothstein
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