London Times Runs Article Promoting Incest LifeSiteNews ^ | 7/18/08 | Thaddeus M. Baklinski and John Jalsevac
Posted on 18 July 2008 23:43:54 by wagglebee
July 18, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - An article narrated by an anonymous woman who says she is "an academic," published in the London Times this week, favorably describes at length and in detail the woman's incestuous relationship with her brother. The article is entitled "I had sex with my brother but I don't feel guilty."
"Daniel is my brother," says the anonymous narrator, whose story was transcribed by journalist Joan McFadden, "but since I was 14 we've had a sexual relationship - and that's not something that many people would feel comfortable with."
The narrator then relates, in increasingly explicit detail, the manner in which her and her brother's close relationship gradually became sexual during their early teenage years. The author repeatedly expresses her belief that there was nothing wrong with the relationship, other than that society was unwilling to accept it.
She explains that the topic of incest is frequently tied in with sexual abuse, but that it need not be. "Incest is so often spoken about in the same breath as abuse, but if you're close in age and equal in relationship terms then it's entirely different," she says. "There's no comparison between siblings close in age having sexual feelings and contact and an adult forcing a younger member of the family to do something they neither understand nor want to be involved in."
She also suggests that incest should begin to be studied from an academic viewpoint and disassociated from the topic of sexual abuse. "As an academic I have a tendency to draw logical conclusions. I like to see a pattern and resolution, so it does pain me that what appears so lovely and natural to me would be regarded as abhorrent by most people. It's not my subject, but I would be really interested to see a study on incest done on these terms, moving it away entirely from the concept of abuse."
She concludes by explaining that she and her brother have since ended their sexual relationship, with her brothering having gotten married, and she herself having met another man with whom she is having a relationship. Nevertheless, she explains, "It's hard knowing that the one person you love above everything is out of bounds. Perhaps worst of all is the fact that you can't tell anyone, as his or her disgust would ruin everything."
The subject of incest has been appearing more frequently in the mainstream media in recent months, with its treatment becoming increasingly sympathetic. Two recent court cases related to incest have been reported on by LifeSiteNews.com.
In March of this year John Deaves and his daughter Anne pleaded guilty to two charges of incestuous intercourse which produced two children. One child died a few days after birth; the other was physically healthy.
District Court Judge Steven Millsteed observed that the case was unique, in that it did not involve the abuse of a minor; rather, the relationship took place between two consenting adults. "This is not a case where a father has violated his daughter and used his position of authority to take advantage of her powerlessness. Rather, this is a case of a mutually consensual union, formed by adults, who had previously had little contact."
Because of her parents' divorce, Anne did not grow up with her father, John. The two were basically strangers when they reunited in 2000 and began their sexual relationship. Anne was in her early 30s and freely entered into the relationship.
Judge Millsteed, however, went on to argue that "the offence of incest exists not merely to protect children from sexual abuse."
"In my view," he continued, "other relevant factors include the need to prevent the high risk of congenital defects of children born of incestuous relationships and to prevent children who are brought up in a family unit founded on an incestuous relationship suffering psychological harm and social stigmatisation. Those factors assume significance in this case," said Millsteed.
In February 2007, the German brother-sister couple, Patrick Stuebing and Susan Karolewski, asked the Constitutional Court to overturn the ban on incest. After giving birth to four children with his sister, Stuebing freely opted for a vasectomy. With no threat of inflicting physical or emotional harm upon future offspring, Stuebing and Karolewski have asked what objections remain to their relationship
"The main problem is, of course, that the couple might produce unhealthy children. But if they don't have children, then I see no reason why not, in this day and age. But then, I'm a scientist, not a moralist," stated Professor Roland Littlewood about the case.
Many pro-family commentators over the years have prophesied that, with the widespread acceptance and state sanctioning of homosexual relationships, it is only a matter of time before to push for the acceptance of incest, pedophelia, polygamy, and bestiality begins. While this notion has been vehemently denied by homosexual activists, there are already significant indications that that process of normalization of these types of sexual behaviours is well under way.
In his commentary "Nothing Wrong With Incest If Secular Worldview Is True" (http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/apr/08041111.html) LifeSiteNews.com staff writer Michael Baggot observed that, from a secular perspective, Littlewood's moral assessment is unassailable. If, as the neo-Darwinian narrative teaches, man is merely the accidental byproduct of blind, unguided natural processes, then there seems to be no reason for man to restrain his sexual desires, writes Baggot. If there is no God, then there is no transcendent purpose for sexuality. Man is thus free to follow and satisfy his sexual urges as he sees fit.
As Archbishop Angelo Bagnasco of Genoa, appointed last year to lead the Italian Bishops Conference, said when commenting on the Italian government's initiative to legalize same-sex unions, family policy must have a basis in natural law and the moral order. If it does not, public opinion someday may justify the instatement of law that sanctions destructive sexual relationships once believed inconceivable.
If society allows homosexual unions, said the Archbishop, "Why say 'no' to forms of legally recognised co-habitation which create alternatives to the family? Why say 'no' to incest? Why say 'no' to the pedophile party in Holland?" (If We Don't Say No to Same-Sex Unions, then Why Not Incest and Pedophilia Says Archbishop: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/apr/07040208.html)
So are you now advocating censorship of news sources to prevent publication of anything you don't like? I see no other point in posting this garbage pile.
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:11:32 -0700, Jon Schild <j...@xmission.com> wrote:
>Sound of Bowl Movement wrote: >> London Times Runs Article Promoting Incest
>So are you now advocating censorship of news sources to prevent >publication of anything you don't like? I see no other point in posting >this garbage pile.
And is it social promotion, or does the incest have to pass some kind of test?
-- Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Sound of Trumpet wrote: > Because of her parents' divorce, Anne did not grow up with her father, > John. The two were basically strangers when they reunited in 2000 and > began their sexual relationship.
This sort of thing is as old as the hills [1]. If a child does not grow up with a sibling or parent, there is *often* an extremely strong attraction if they meet in later life. It's often said that "opposites attract" but it's not true. All the evidence suggests that people are attracted to people who are like them (both in physical appearance and otherwise). Who would be closer than a sibling or parent / child?
Equally there is clearly some sort of mechanism at work that prevents brothers and sisters from becoming attracted. (The first case quoted in the article is highly unusual in this respect). I have read that the early kibbutzim in Israel brought up their children communally and hoped that they would in due course pair off and start a new generation. Instead what happened was that the kids basically felt about each other as brother and sister and simply didn't fancy each other.
I am not making any judgements, just stating facts.
> On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:11:32 -0700, Jon Schild <j...@xmission.com> > wrote:
>>Sound of Bowl Movement wrote: >>> London Times Runs Article Promoting Incest
>>So are you now advocating censorship of news sources to prevent >>publication of anything you don't like? I see no other point in posting >>this garbage pile.
> And is it social promotion, or does the incest have to pass some > kind of test?
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:11:32 -0700, Jon Schild <j...@xmission.com> wrote:
>Sound of Bowl Movement wrote: >> London Times Runs Article Promoting Incest
>So are you now advocating censorship of news sources to prevent >publication of anything you don't like? I see no other point in posting >this garbage pile.
There's no such thing as "The London Times" or "The Times of London".
It is "The Times". It was the first broadsheet newspaper and as the only one at the time nobody thought of limiting it to a particular city.
> > Because of her parents' divorce, Anne did not grow up with her father, > > John. The two were basically strangers when they reunited in 2000 and > > began their sexual relationship.
> This sort of thing is as old as the hills [1]. If a child does not grow > up with a sibling or parent, there is *often* an extremely strong > attraction if they meet in later life. It's often said that "opposites > attract" but it's not true. All the evidence suggests that people > are attracted to people who are like them (both in physical appearance > and otherwise). Who would be closer than a sibling or parent / child?
> Equally there is clearly some sort of mechanism at work that prevents > brothers and sisters from becoming attracted. (The first case quoted > in the article is highly unusual in this respect). I have read that > the early kibbutzim in Israel brought up their children communally and > hoped that they would in due course pair off and start a new generation. > Instead what happened was that the kids basically felt about each other > as brother and sister and simply didn't fancy each other.
> I am not making any judgements, just stating facts.
(T Guy):
All the facts stated above suggest that incest is uncommon because children brought up as brother and sister, together from infancy, are not sexuo-romantically attracted to each other; that is the 'mechanism at work ' which was not there in the case of Anne and John.
Christopher A. Lee wrote: > On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:11:32 -0700, Jon Schild <j...@xmission.com> > wrote:
>>Sound of Bowl Movement wrote: >>> London Times Runs Article Promoting Incest
>>So are you now advocating censorship of news sources to prevent >>publication of anything you don't like? I see no other point in posting >>this garbage pile.
> There's no such thing as "The London Times" or "The Times of London".
> It is "The Times". It was the first broadsheet newspaper and as the > only one at the time nobody thought of limiting it to a particular > city.
If you are in, for example, New York City, and somebody refers to "The Times" in conversation, they're talking about a local paper. So for the purposes of clarity, it's fair enough to refer to "The Times of London". But "The London Times" is just plain wrong.
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:40:11 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<ca...@optonline.net> wrote: >There's no such thing as "The London Times" or "The Times of London".
>It is "The Times". It was the first broadsheet newspaper and as the >only one at the time nobody thought of limiting it to a particular >city.
The official name doesn't stop it from being "The Times" of London, anymore than "The Open" can't be called "The British Open" (check it's web site).
-- "In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found, than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
> Christopher A. Lee wrote: > > On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:11:32 -0700, Jon Schild <j...@xmission.com> > > wrote:
> >>Sound of Bowl Movement wrote: > >>> London Times Runs Article Promoting Incest
> >>So are you now advocating censorship of news sources to prevent > >>publication of anything you don't like? I see no other point in posting > >>this garbage pile.
> > There's no such thing as "The London Times" or "The Times of London".
> > It is "The Times". It was the first broadsheet newspaper and as the > > only one at the time nobody thought of limiting it to a particular > > city.
> If you are in, for example, New York City, and somebody refers to "The > Times" in conversation, they're talking about a local paper. So for > the purposes of clarity, it's fair enough to refer to "The Times of > London". But "The London Times" is just plain wrong.
Ah, but the writer refers to "London Times", not "The London Times." There is no London Thames river, but no one would be faulted for speaking of the Thames waterfront in London, differentiated from the Thames in Oxford, the Thames in Reading, and the Thames in Windsor.
Some of you people are really on a knee-jerk opposition to anything posted by SOT, and anyone who picked this issue should be embarrassed. Must be a really slow day.
T Guy wrote: > All the facts stated above suggest that incest is uncommon because > children brought up as brother and sister, together from infancy, are > not sexuo-romantically attracted to each other; that is the 'mechanism > at work ' which was not there in the case of Anne and John.
Exactly. The situation is highly unusual, as I said. I wonder if there was a period of separation at a critical time.
I guess this article http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,540831,00.html explains why: "Napoleonic France stopped punishing incest in 1810 in the wake of the declaration of civil and human rights during French Revolution that the law only has the right to prohibit such actions that are damaging to society. It's impossible, or at least very hard to prove that consensual incest does such damage."
Terry Cross wrote: > On Nov 6, 5:30 pm, "Fevric J. Glandules" <f...@invalid.invalid> wrote: >> If you are in, for example, New York City, and somebody refers to "The >> Times" in conversation, they're talking about a local paper. So for >> the purposes of clarity, it's fair enough to refer to "The Times of >> London". But "The London Times" is just plain wrong.
> Ah, but the writer refers to "London Times", not "The London Times." > There is no London Thames river, but no one would be faulted for > speaking of the Thames waterfront in London, differentiated from the > Thames in Oxford, the Thames in Reading, and the Thames in Windsor.
Are you sure we're not in violent agreement?
> Some of you people are really on a knee-jerk opposition to anything > posted by SOT, and anyone who picked this issue should be > embarrassed. Must be a really slow day.
Dunno. I'm in uk.misc. Which tends, these days, to be very slow indeed, once you've weeded all the crap out.
> Terry Cross wrote: > > On Nov 6, 5:30 pm, "Fevric J. Glandules" <f...@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >> If you are in, for example, New York City, and somebody refers to "The > >> Times" in conversation, they're talking about a local paper. So for > >> the purposes of clarity, it's fair enough to refer to "The Times of > >> London". But "The London Times" is just plain wrong.
> > Ah, but the writer refers to "London Times", not "The London Times." > > There is no London Thames river, but no one would be faulted for > > speaking of the Thames waterfront in London, differentiated from the > > Thames in Oxford, the Thames in Reading, and the Thames in Windsor.
> Are you sure we're not in violent agreement?
> > Some of you people are really on a knee-jerk opposition to anything > > posted by SOT, and anyone who picked this issue should be > > embarrassed. Must be a really slow day.
> Dunno. I'm in uk.misc. Which tends, these days, to be very slow indeed, > once you've weeded all the crap out.
>> On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:11:32 -0700, Jon Schild <j...@xmission.com> >> wrote:
>>>Sound of Bowl Movement wrote: >>>> London Times Runs Article Promoting Incest
>>>So are you now advocating censorship of news sources to prevent >>>publication of anything you don't like? I see no other point in posting >>>this garbage pile.
>> There's no such thing as "The London Times" or "The Times of London".
>> It is "The Times". It was the first broadsheet newspaper and as the >> only one at the time nobody thought of limiting it to a particular >> city.
>If you are in, for example, New York City, and somebody refers to "The >Times" in conversation, they're talking about a local paper. So for >the purposes of clarity, it's fair enough to refer to "The Times of >London". But "The London Times" is just plain wrong.
Even sticking a city name on it is wrong, because The Times is not, and never has been, a regional newspaper. If it has to be distinguished from other newspapers with similar names, then "The Times of the UK", or something like that would be appropriate.
On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 19:03:30 -0700, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:40:11 -0500, Christopher A. Lee ><ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>There's no such thing as "The London Times" or "The Times of London".
>>It is "The Times". It was the first broadsheet newspaper and as the >>only one at the time nobody thought of limiting it to a particular >>city.
>The official name doesn't stop it from being "The Times" of London, >anymore than "The Open" can't be called "The British Open" (check it's >web site).
If they's stuck to their original name, I suppose we would now have "the New York Daily Universal Register", and so on.
Everything should be taken to be British or English untless proved otherwise - The Football Association, the Rugby Union, the Amateur Athletics Association, the Army, the Royal Navy, the Royal Mail. All of these are older than the corresponding body in any other English-speaking country. For the same reason, we are exempt from the Universal Postal Union requirement to put the name of the country on stamps.
-- Don Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
In article <26c8dfda-ffcf-4efc-9859-4cf27979a...@t2g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com> quoted some bozos:
> As Archbishop Angelo Bagnasco of Genoa, appointed last year to > lead the Italian Bishops Conference, said when commenting on the > Italian government's initiative to legalize same-sex unions, > family policy must have a basis in natural law and the moral > order. If it does not, public opinion someday may justify the > instatement of law that sanctions destructive sexual relationships > once believed inconceivable.
On 11/08/2009 02:00 AM, William December Starr wrote:
> In article > <26c8dfda-ffcf-4efc-9859-4cf27979a...@t2g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, > Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com> quoted some bozos:
>> As Archbishop Angelo Bagnasco of Genoa, appointed last year to lead >> the Italian Bishops Conference, said when commenting on the Italian >> government's initiative to legalize same-sex unions, family policy >> must have a basis in natural law and the moral order. If it does >> not, public opinion someday may justify the instatement of law that >> sanctions destructive sexual relationships once believed >> inconceivable.
> And that would be just *awful*.
Well, if you accept the "destructive" part, then yes.
-- The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any side of it.
In article <tfmdnUeLCuK-V2vXnZ2dnUVZ_s5i4...@giganews.com>, The Wanderer <wande...@fastmail.fm> said:
> William December Starr wrote: >> Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com> quoted some bozos:
>>> As Archbishop Angelo Bagnasco of Genoa, appointed last year to >>> lead the Italian Bishops Conference, said when commenting on the >>> Italian government's initiative to legalize same-sex unions, >>> family policy must have a basis in natural law and the moral >>> order. If it does not, public opinion someday may justify the >>> instatement of law that sanctions destructive sexual >>> relationships once believed inconceivable.
>> And that would be just *awful*.
> Well, if you accept the "destructive" part, then yes.
I figured that in this context "destructive" meant "stuff that I the author of this essay, an asshole who wants to see my religion's dictates imposed on everyone, would hate."